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#1693 Downsizing and Henry David Thoreau
March 2, 2026
Guest host Russ Eagle interviews Clay about his ambitious downsizing project. For several decades, Clay has explored the world of Thoreau’s great book Walden, which calls on us to reduce the clutter of our material lives to open our spiritual arteries. Simplify, simplify, and minimize, says Thoreau. Finally, Clay decided to undertake the purge. So far, he has given away 3,000 books to a public library system in east central North Dakota, with plans to donate at least 2,000 books a year for the next 5 years. The question is, is Thoreau right that there is liberation in repurposing excess material baggage, that one crosses an invisible boundary, and that it is possible in this way to achieve a higher order of being? Towards the end of the conversation, Clay explains how the downsizing project inspired him to make a Mind Map of the authors and subjects that still matter greatly to him. With the help of ChatGPT, Clay produced a manuscript featuring 52 of his intellectual heroes, with appropriate AI-generated portraits of each author. This episode was recorded on January 18, 2025.
#1692 The Crisis of the Public Lands
February 23, 2026
Clay joins journalist Jonathan Thompson, publisher of The Land Desk on Substack and author of Sagebrush Empire: How a Remote Utah County Became the Battlefront of American Public Lands. Thompson, who is currently living in Greece, begins by providing a European perspective on what is happening in the United States — the assault on NATO, the flirtation with taking Greenland from Denmark, the overreach of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement service, and European bewilderment about America’s intended place in the world community. Most of the conversation is about the crisis of public lands in America — the push to open more of the public domain to resource extraction, the calls for privatizing parcels of BLM land in the West, and the recent revocation of grazing permits for the American Prairie Reserve in eastern Montana. And oh yes, the future of the Colorado River. This episode was recorded on January 28, 2026.
#1691 Was it Shakespearean Tragedy or Greek Tragedy?
February 16, 2026
Clay interviews the award-winning historian Joe Ellis about America’s tragic legacy of slavery, and about the dispossession of American Indians from their sovereign homelands. Professor Ellis has often argued that what happened with respect to African Americans was Shakespearean tragedy — in other words, if the better angels of American life had prevailed, things might have turned out differently; but that the dispossession and cultural genocide America wrought with Native Americans was probably inevitable. Clay has repeatedly challenged that view, and Joe Ellis suggested that Listening to America feature a serious discussion of how things might have turned out differently in both cultural intersections. The problem of what Clay calls “the Myth of Inevitability” is that it lets white America off the hook. If it could not have turned out any other way, perhaps we don’t need to wring our hands too much. It’s a critical discussion of agency and complicity in America’s problematic history. This episode was recorded on December 15, 2025.
#1690 Mount Rushmore: Its Back Story and the Continuing Controversy
February 9, 2026
Clay welcomes author Matthew Davis to talk about his new book, Biography of a Mountain: The Making and Meaning of Mount Rushmore. How did it happen that a mountain in the heart of the Black Hills of South Dakota, in land sovereign to the Lakota Indians, came to be the canvas on which Gutzon Borglum carved four monumental figures in American history: Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Theodore Roosevelt? Should it matter to us that Borglum was a member of the KKK? Why are there no women, no African Americans, no Native Americans carved up there? What is the future of Mount Rushmore, and who, by the way, was this obscure New York lawyer, Charles E. Rushmore, who visited the region in 1885? We give considerable attention to Gerard Baker, the Hidatsa Native who served as superintendent at Mount Rushmore from 2004 to 2010 and revolutionized how we interpret the site. This episode was recorded on November 24, 2025.
#1689 Nat and Mikey Survived!
February 2, 2026
Clay interviews the adventurous Brits Nat and Mikey, school teachers who got it into their heads to float the entire Missouri and Mississippi River corridor. They began on August 5, 2025, and completed their journey in the second week of January 2026. They floated more than 3,000 miles from Three Forks, Montana, to the Gulf of Mexico, where they pulled their canoe out of the water for the last time. When Clay caught up with them in mid-January, they were luxuriating in a New Orleans hotel. But the big news is that Nat and Mikey’s great adventure is not over! They are now going to hitchhike to California, then fly to South America for further exploration. Towards the end of the podcast, they tried Velveeta for the first time, with the usual British condescension towards one of America’s great food groups. This episode was recorded on January 18, 2025.
You can follow Nat and Mikey on their continuing adventure here.
#1688 Ten Things About Foreign Policy in the Age of Jefferson
January 26, 2026
Clay’s favorite guest, Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky, makes her first 2026 appearance to discuss foreign policy in the administrations of George Washington, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson. America’s recent incursion into the sovereign nation of Venezuela raises questions about the war powers in America. The Founding Fathers were adamant that Congress (not the executive) must initiate wars, and vote funds to pay for them, too. We discuss the crisis of the French Revolution in America, Washington’s famous Farewell Address in 1796, the Quasi-War with France during the John Adams administration, and Adams’ heroic decision to seek peace rather than war with the French Republic. We explore Jefferson’s idealism as voiced in a letter he wrote in 1799 and his famous First Inaugural Address in 1801. Jefferson believed it was too late in the world’s history to solve our disputes through bloodshed, and yet he sent marines and a naval squadron to North Africa to bloody the nose of the Pasha of Tripoli. This episode was recorded on January 5, 2026.
#1687 The Sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald, 50 Years Later
January 19, 2026
Clay joins author John U. Bacon of Ann Arbor, Michigan, whose book, The Gales of November: The Untold Story of the Edmund Fitzgerald, takes a new look at the sinking of the Fitzgerald on November 10, 1975. Four years in the making, Bacon’s research unearthed new material on the catastrophe, in which all 29 crew members (all men) perished when the Edmund Fitzgerald went down. Was there crew error or hubris in Captain Ernest McSorley? Was the great 729-foot ship structurally unsound? Or was it just a perfect storm? The winds rose to 100 miles per hour that day, and the waves were sometimes 60 feet or more high. The Fitzgerald settled on the bottom of Lake Superior more than 500 feet below the surface. It has been visited several times since, but the Canadian government, whose territorial waters the incident occurred in, severely restricts visitation because it regards it as a gravesite. This episode was recorded on November 24, 2025.
#1686 Venezuela, Thomas Jefferson and American Ideals
January 12, 2026
Clay and guest host David Horton of Radford University discuss the global implications of America’s recent incursion into the sovereign nation of Venezuela. For the first segment of the program, Horton asks President Thomas Jefferson about the foreign policy crises of the early national period. After the break, Horton asked Clay to break character to contextualize the recent raid in the larger sweep of American history. Have there been similar incidents in previous decades? How will the kidnapping of the dictator Maduro affect America’s standing in the world? Who gets to decide what foreign leaders to leave in place, and which to depose? What are the constitutional implications of this sudden military incursion? Is the post-World War II liberal world order crumbling? And what comes next? This episode was recorded on January 7, 2026.
#1685 The Presidents and Political Theater
January 5, 2026
Clay welcomes one of his favorite guests, Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky, back to the program to talk about political theater in American presidential history. Thomas Jefferson walked to his inauguration, met visitors to the White House, including diplomats, while wearing his house slippers. George Washington was able to quell a potential military coup (the Newburgh Conspiracy) by taking a pair of spectacles out of his pocket and apologizing that his eyesight had deteriorated in the long years of the War of Independence. How calculated were these moments of political theater? Were they planned and maybe even rehearsed, or were they more or less spontaneous evocations of presidential character? We talk about all of the early presidents, but end in a discussion of Lyndon Johnson taking the Oath of Office on the tarmac at Love Field in Dallas on the afternoon of JFK’s assassination. This episode was recorded on November 19, 2025.
#1684 America at 250: How Did We Get Here?
December 29, 2025
Clay welcomes Colorado historian Walter Borneman to the program. Borneman has written more than a dozen books, from the events at Lexington and Concord to a soon-to-be-published history of the American West following World War II. He’s a public historian with a wide reach. The great question is: where are we as we approach the country’s 250th birthday? How did we get here, and where might we be headed? Does a study of American history help us understand what feels like an unprecedented moment in our national destiny? Will we survive this current crisis of national confidence? Clay’s conversation includes a discussion of the sweep of the Europeanization of the North American continent, with particular emphasis on the presidency of James Polk, an unapologetic expansionist, and, of course, Thomas Jefferson, who may have been our most intense national imperialist. This episode was recorded on October 28, 2025.
#1683 Writing the American West in a Time of Disillusionment
December 22, 2025
Clay welcomes eminent western historian Paul Hutton for a discussion of his new book, The Undiscovered Country: Triumph, Tragedy, and the Shaping of the American West. Hutton is a distinguished emeritus professor of history at the University of New Mexico and also the Interim Curator of the Buffalo Bill Cody Museum at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, Wyoming. Hutton’s latest book attempts to strike a balance between the old, unreconstructed triumphalist view of America’s westward movement and the more recent, guilt-ridden academic condemnation of the American experiment. We attempted to unpack the concepts of discovery, manifest destiny, the “Indian Wars,” and the mythology of the West, including in Hollywood Westerns. How should America think about its westward movement as the 250th birthday of the United States approaches? This podcast was recorded on October 30, 2025.
#1682 How Do Rivers Work?
December 15, 2025
Clay talks with Professor Ellen Wohl of Colorado State University about the magical ways of rivers. Professor Wohl is the author of a new book, Following the Bend: How to Read a River and Understand Its Nature. Where does the water come from, and where does it wind up? Why do rivers meander and form S-curves? Does a river have a single source or many capillary feeder streams? As global climate change becomes a central problem of our era, what will happen to the 40 million people who depend on the Colorado for their livelihoods, lifestyles, and survival? How does the United States Geological Survey decide where to pinpoint the source of a river like the Missouri or the Mississippi? Should we expect serious breaches of major dams during our lifetime? Do rivers have legal standing? Finally, do rivers have consciousness and intentionality? This episode was recorded on October 27, 2025.
#1681 Joseph Ellis Returns with a New Book
December 8, 2025
One of Clay’s favorite historians, Joe Ellis, has just published his 14th book, The Great Contradiction: The Tragic Side of the American Founding. His latest volume attempts to make sense of the twin failures of the revolutionary era: the failure to end slavery in the United States and the founders’ inability to respect and protect the homelands and sovereignty of Native Americans. How could the founders have been so dedicated to the principles of liberty, equality, and the rights of humankind and permitted themselves to be hypocrites on these fundamental issues? Joe’s book is an attempt to chasten some of the wilder claims of the 1619 Project, which argues that America has been a racist and even white supremacist nation from the beginning, and all that talk about the “rights of man” is just self-serving rhetoric. This is not the view of Joe Ellis. This episode was recorded on October 28, 2025.
#1680 The Continuing River Adventures of Nat and Mikey
December 1, 2025
The two intrepid British adventurers, Natalia and Mikey, who came to America to float the entire Missouri and Mississippi River corridor in a canoe, have checked in from St. Louis, where they arrived on the 108th day of their incredible journey. They are pleased to have floated 2,341 miles from Three Forks, Montana, to the mouth of the Missouri at St. Louis. The main takeaway so far, except for the fantastic adventure they have undertaken together, is the hospitality and generosity of the people of the American heartland. They call them River Angels, who provide portaging of the canoe, food, meals in actual restaurants, shelter, and anything else Nat and Mikey need. They might have packed it in at St. Louis, but like Lewis and Clark, they show undaunted courage and are determined to float all the way to New Orleans — and beyond, all the way to the Gulf. It’s a sweet and informative mid-journey report from just under the Gateway Arch in St. Louis. This episode was recorded on November 24, 2025.
If you are interested in following Nat and Mikey’s trip, here is a link to their blog and a garmin map with their location.
#1679 Our Thanksgiving Show
November 24, 2025
Guest host Nolan Johnson and Clay talk about the history of Thanksgiving, or what John Adams might call the uses and misuses of the Thanksgiving holiday. They explore the origins of American Thanksgiving, beginning with the pilgrims of 1621, through the Civil War, and into the 20th century’s additions to Thanksgiving — the parades, the NFL game, Black Friday, and its further encroachments. Clay and Nolan talk about their own Thanksgiving observances, in their families and beyond, and our memories of particularly satisfying or dramatic Thanksgivings. Thanksgiving is perhaps the only time in the calendar when almost everyone in America says some form of grace before tucking into that vast feast. Is Velveeta a legitimate cheese? Is turkey essential? What about the crazy uncle who offends almost everyone, and the college freshman — just home from university — who is now a Marxist who thinks the whole ritual is colonialist? This episode was recorded on November 20, 2024.
#1678 The No Kings Protests in Historical Context
November 17, 2025
Frequent guest host David Horton and Clay discuss America’s current political paralysis and the deep frustration and cynicism of the American people in the wake of the No Kings protests of late October, which took place in 2,700 communities across the United States. If millions of people take to the streets to protest what they regard as the excesses of the current administration, are they likely to make a difference? What would it take to convince this or any other administration that it is not representing the best interests of a significant portion of the American public? Clay and David discuss the protests of the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s, in particular Martin Luther King, Jr.’s commitment to nonviolent disruption of American life. Voter turnout and civic participation are lower in the United States than in the rest of the world. What would it take to inspire a mass movement that would change the course of American public life? Clay suggests that everyone read Thoreau’s On Civil Disobedience and Martin Luther King’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail. This episode was recorded on October 21, 2025.
#1677 Final Frontiers: Lewis and Clark and the American Space Program
November 10, 2025
Clay talks with veteran NASA astronaut Tom Jones, who flew four Space Shuttle missions for a total of 53 days, 49 minutes in space. Clay outlined a list of issues related to the Lewis and Clark Expedition of 1804-06, including propulsion, navigation, food, waste management, record-keeping, and re-entry, and explained how Lewis and Clark addressed these dynamics. Then, Tom Jones explained how these concepts are applied in space. Topics included religious activity in space, romance in space, mutiny in space, the wonder of going where no man has gone before, recruitment, training, and re-entry. Tom Jones is the author of half a dozen books, including the acclaimed Skywalking: An Astronaut’s Memoir. He believes we owe it to the four remaining lunar surface astronauts that we land again on the moon before the last of them dies. This episode was recorded on September 30, 2025.
#1676 American Presidents and the Press
November 3, 2025
Clay and frequent guest Lindsay Chervinsky discuss the history of American presidents and the fourth estate. Almost all presidents are frustrated by a free press, and some have attempted to censor it. Beginning with George Washington (who was thin-skinned but did not strike out at the opposition), through Adams and Jefferson, and all the way to Richard Nixon, the First Amendment has been a casualty of real or perceived national and international crises. The Sedition Act of 1798 and the Espionage Act of 1918 have much in common. Thomas Jefferson, as usual, said all the right things about the importance of a free press, but he also encouraged the governor of Pennsylvania to undertake a few wholesome prosecutions of the most vitriolic Federalist newspapers. Generally speaking, after periods of censorship during national security crises, the pendulum swings back to the center. This program aims to provide historical context and clarity amid our own First Amendment crisis. This episode was recorded on October 17, 2025.
#1675 What Is Habeas Corpus and Why Does It Matter?
October 27, 2025
Clay and historian Beau Breslin discuss the doctrine of habeas corpus and its role in the current debate about how to handle undocumented immigrants in the United States. In a nutshell, habeas corpus means “hey, produce the body.” You cannot just arbitrarily snatch someone off the street and make them disappear. Habeas corpus was so important to the Founding Fathers that they embedded it in the first Article of the Constitution, right off the top, and did not postpone it to the Bill of Rights. The United States has a mixed history of its adherence to the doctrine of habeas corpus, which Beau Breslin believes is THE fundamental right in America and all over the world. And yet, Professor Breslin, who teaches at an elite college in New York state, admitted that the majority of his students, even in a class on constitutional theory, would probably be unable to define just what habeas corpus means, where it came from, and why it is critically important to a free and enlightened society. This episode was recorded on September 12, 2025.
#1674 A Chat With Two Brits Who Are Floating the Missouri River From Montana to the Sea
October 20, 2025
Clay’s conversation with Nat and Mikey, schoolteachers from Britain, who are floating down the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers from Three Forks, Montana, all the way to St. Louis and beyond, with hopes of ending in New Orleans around the time of Mardi Gras. They recount their adventures so far. At the time of the interview, they were just north of Pierre, South Dakota, staying for one night in a resort motel on Lake Oahe. What have they learned about America, about Lewis and Clark, about Native Americans, about their relationship, and about themselves? They capsized on day two just north of Three Forks, but have managed to stay upright ever since, and they are confident they will be able to float all the way to the mouth of the Mississippi. This episode was recorded on September 30, 2025.
If you are interested in following Nat and Mikey’s trip, here is a link to their blog and a garmin map with their location.
#1673 In the Belly of the Beast
October 13, 2025
Clay and his friend Russ Eagle discuss John Steinbeck’s 1960 Travels with Charley tour of America from within Steinbeck’s truck camper Rocinante. Thanks to the great generosity of the folks at the National Steinbeck Center in Salinas, Clay and his Steinbeckian friend Russ were permitted to do the podcast at the dinette table of the pickup camper. They told the story of how Steinbeck purchased the camper — then a novelty, how he used it as a metaphor for his travels in search of America, what happened to it after his transcontinental journey, and how it eventually found its way to the National Steinbeck Center in Salinas, California, where Steinbeck grew up. Clay and Russ discuss their discovery — made in the Center’s archives — of a document that shows just when Steinbeck returned home from his three month trek. This answers one of the questions historians have had about the whimsical journey Steinbeck made with his French poodle Charley. This episode was recorded live on September 27, 2025.
#1672 President Jefferson Discusses America at 250
October 6, 2025
Guest host David Horton talks with President Thomas Jefferson about the United States as the nation approaches its 250th birthday. Horton asks Jefferson to explain his vision of America, to assess its successes and failures in his own time, and then to observe and reflect on the United States today. Aside from a ruinous and swelling national debt, Jefferson seemed most concerned by the breakdown of the “checks and balances” that are vital to the survival of a republic. Other topics included the true meaning of the phrase “pursuit of happiness,” America’s place in the world, the loss of civics and ethical training in our schools, and the death of family agriculture. Mr. Jefferson affirmed that July 4, 1776, is one of the most important dates in human history, possibly the most important date in the history of liberty. He was quick to add, however, that he did not mean to call attention to himself in invoking the Fourth of July. This episode was recorded on September 13, 2025.
#1671 Mysteries at the End of the Trail With David Nicandri
September 29, 2025
Historian and author David Nicandri joins Clay in the LTA Airstream in Olympia, Washington, for a conversation about lingering mysteries of the Lewis and Clark Expedition. The first question was why Meriwether Lewis’ journal remained silent when he finally reached the Pacific Coast, which was the primary purpose of his transcontinental expedition. It was a dereliction of duty for the leader of the expedition to fail to write about reaching the Pacific after 18 months of gruelling travel. Clay and David attempt to make sense of Lewis’ silence. The second mystery they tackled concerns the enduring appeal of the Lewis and Clark story after 230 years. There are several dozen interpretive centers for Lewis and Clark, none for Zebulon Pike, who was exploring the Mississippi River drainage at the same time, and none for John C. Fremont, a generation later. Why? This episode was recorded September 9, 2025.
#1670 Paddling the Full Lewis and Clark Trail
September 22, 2025
Clay interviews Montana adventurer Norm Miller, who has undertaken truly heroic canoe and kayak journeys on great rivers of the West. When he was 35, he retraced Scottish trader Alexander Mackenzie’s 1789 2,000-mile journey from Lake Athabasca to the Arctic Ocean. When he was 41, during the Bicentennial of the Lewis and Clark expedition, Norm floated from St. Louis all the way to Astoria, Oregon, leaving his modified canoe only when there was no longer anything to float, and then making his way overland with a 45-pound backpack. Both stories are amazing — a lone man threading some of the most powerful rivers on the North American continent, keeping a daily journal, taking thousands of old school photographs, affirming the geographic descriptions in the journals of Lewis and Clark and Alex Mackenzie, and meeting very interesting roadside groups and individuals. This episode was recorded on September 13, 2025.
#1669 A Conversation About Political Violence in America
September 15, 2025
In the aftermath of the assassination of Charlie Kirk in Utah, Clay asked his good friend Beau Breslin of Skidmore College to join him in a conversation about political violence in America. Political violence is nothing new in America. We were born in an armed revolution, we’ve had waves of political violence throughout our history, and we seem as a nation to be in love with violence, at least in our popular culture, and beyond. The program includes discussion of slave revolts, violent brawls on the floor of Congress, the assassinations of Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, and JFK, the rash of violence in the 1960s, and the growing polarization of America. Professor Breslin believes firmly that we can bring down the political temperature in the U.S. but only if we sit down together and grant each other legitimacy, even when we very seriously disagree. Prompted by popular demand, in the third segment of the program, Clay offered an op-ed statement about our need to have a serious, respectful, and civil national conversation about the Second Amendment and gun violence in America. This episode was recorded on September 12, 2025.
#1668 Bittersweet Homecoming
September 8, 2025
Clay talks about his 2025 trek across America in his 23-foot Airstream following the Lewis and Clark trail. Clay discusses RV life and provides a sense of what a day in the life of an RV drifter is like. Clay also speaks about his intensive study of the journals of Lewis and Clark and the book he is developing, tentatively titled Getting Noticed on the Lewis and Clark Trail. And, at the end, he tells us about his future Airstream travel plans and his fall 2025 trips to England and Rome. This episode was recorded on September 8, 2025.
#1667 Lunch With America’s Leading Steinbeck Scholar
September 1, 2025
Clay and his friend Russ Eagle interview Robert DeMott, one of the greatest living Steinbeck scholars, at his fishing cabin on the Madison River, south of Bozeman, Montana. DeMott is the author of three important studies of Steinbeck’s novels, the editor of the journal he kept while writing his classic, The Grapes of Wrath, and also the editor of the four-volume Library of America edition of Steinbeck’s work. Russ Eagle has been enamored of Steinbeck for decades, particularly his 1945 novella Cannery Row. Dr. DeMott was incredibly generous with his time and his insights into Steinbeck. An avid fly fisherman, DeMott spends five or six weeks each summer in Montana’s Madison River valley, where we met up with him. DeMott regards The Grapes of Wrath as a top-five American novel, and Cannery Row, though underappreciated, is nearly as great. Over sodas and sandwiches, we had the honor of listening to one of America’s most significant literary critics. This episode was recorded on August 1, 2025.
#1666 Ten Books on the American Revolution
August 25, 2025
Frequent guest, Lindsay Chervinsky, makes a late summer appearance to discuss Ten Books on the American Revolution. Ken Burns recently said the American Revolution was the most important event since the birth of Jesus. Our listeners have asked for advice about what to read as July 4, 2026, looms over American life. Lindsay is current with recent scholarship; Clay’s approach is more biographical. They agreed that you cannot go wrong with Rick Atkinson’s trilogy on the revolution, and reading anything by Joseph Ellis is great. Clay recommended Ellis’s book Passionate Sage, on John Adams, while Lindsay recommended Founding Brothers. Listen to the podcast for lots more great book recommendations and their lively discussion. This episode was recorded on August 18, 2025.
Lindsay’s book list:
- Rick Atkinson: The Revolution Trilogy (latest is The Fate of the Day)
- Robert Gross: The Minutemen and Their World
- Joseph Ellis: Founding Brothers.
- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich: A Midwife’s Tale.
- Stephen Brumwell: Gentleman Warrior.
- Kathleen Duvall: Independence Lost.
- Carol Berkin: Revolutionary Mothers.
- Pauline Maier: American Scripture.
- T.H. Breen: Marketplace of Revolution.
- She also mentioned The Stamp Act Crisis by Edmund and Helen Morgan.
Clay’s book list:
- Joseph Ellis: Passionate Sage: The Character and Legacy of John Adams
- Ron Chernow: Alexander Hamilton
- Craig Nelson: Thomas Paine
- Merrill Peterson: Thomas Jefferson and the New Nation
- Richard Norton Smith: George Washington and the New Nation
- Linda Kerber: Women of the Republic
- Gordon Wood: Creation of the American Republic
- Gordon Wood: The Americanization of Benjamin Franklin
Find past episodes of Listening to America and The Thomas Jefferson Hour